tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2206657754721636993.post2806534031337012258..comments2023-09-27T19:30:36.379-07:00Comments on Year of the Dungeon: The Eyes and Ears of the Player CharactersAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00923748337647812135noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2206657754721636993.post-78695265004194672212010-03-03T13:38:19.338-08:002010-03-03T13:38:19.338-08:00I can see where search/spot rolls can clarify thin...I can see where search/spot rolls can clarify things by giving the GM and players clear mechanical guidelines on when and how the GM reveals things. I've never been a big fan of them, but seeing how other people are using them is helping me figure out my own approach.<br /><br />@crc Making sure that the players don't mistake the GM's hints for mere flavor is definitely part of what I want to achieve. <br /><br />@jon Thanks!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00923748337647812135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2206657754721636993.post-33272484187060245372010-03-03T13:37:19.336-08:002010-03-03T13:37:19.336-08:00I can see where search/spot rolls can clarify thin...I can see where search/spot rolls can clarify things by giving the GM and players clear mechanical guidelines on when and how the GM reveals things. I've never been a big fan of them, but seeing how other people are using them is helping me figure out my own approach.<br /><br />@crc Making sure that the players don't mistake the GM's hints for mere flavor is definitely part of what I want to achieve. <br /><br />@jon Thanks!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00923748337647812135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2206657754721636993.post-54161286394805169782010-03-03T13:36:19.341-08:002010-03-03T13:36:19.341-08:00I can see where search/spot rolls can clarify thin...I can see where search/spot rolls can clarify things by giving the GM and players clear mechanical guidelines on when and how the GM reveals things. I've never been a big fan of them, but seeing how other people are using them is helping me figure out my own approach.<br /><br />@crc Making sure that the players don't mistake the GM's hints for mere flavor is definitely part of what I want to achieve. <br /><br />@jon Thanks!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00923748337647812135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2206657754721636993.post-51081931808657224152010-03-03T10:05:16.698-08:002010-03-03T10:05:16.698-08:00Tony, I like how you refer to DM-player interactio...<b>Tony</b>, I like how you refer to DM-player interaction as a conversation. This "transactional" view surveys the best of my own gaming experiences.<br /><br />Perhaps that's why, these days, I am wary of Search rolls and skill checks of a similarly "soft" nature. In my experience the checks halt the desired immersive conversations more often than they propel them.<br /><br />Still, there must be a happy medium, as you and others suggest.<br /><br />Your dungeons, by the way, are all kinds of awesome. :)Jon McNallyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06349882237118956838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2206657754721636993.post-67910511247472437722010-03-02T19:03:23.888-08:002010-03-02T19:03:23.888-08:00In my d20 games (e.g. D&D, d20 Modern and d20 ...In my d20 games (e.g. D&D, d20 Modern and d20 Call of Cthulhu), I had made an index card listing the name of each skill the DM/GM should make in secret for the player as suggested in the text of each core rulebook. Spot/Listen/Notice type skills always made that list. I only secretly rolled Spot/Listen/Notice when there was some important, not so obvious story element that might be missed. The players never called for spot/listen/notice checks on their own. This served two purposes - 1. the players were always unaware they had failed a check because nothing was said if they result was a failure, and 2. it sped up play because only I (being the only one in the know, so to speak) determined if a roll was necessary. Since everyone was aware beforehand this was it was going to work, no one felt slighted and anyone that had a character invested heavily in Spot/Listen/Notice competency was still rewarded. I think this approach fits in well with the DM/GM's role as eyes and ears of the PCs. <br /><br />Search, on the other hand, was always instigated at the request of the player(s). The roll was still made in secret, though. If they found something, they were told about it. If they didn't, they didn't know if it was because they failed their check or if there was just nothing to find. Since you could always Try Again, and Search checks take up game time (compared to Spot/Listen/Notice, which is basically a Reaction both to the environment and game time-wise), it was up to the players whether or not they wished to continue their efforts or move on.Joe Bardaleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00242764968237965401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2206657754721636993.post-29462989968788014532010-03-02T13:09:24.772-08:002010-03-02T13:09:24.772-08:00The DM might not be under any obligation to say an...The DM might not be under any <i>obligation</i> to say anything about that remhoraz, but it's not clear to me why he wouldn't, to the extent that he envisions his role as helping the PCs be awesome and effective heroes. <br /><br />There's no question that the presence of the monster is mechanically vital, right? You need to help the players engage mechanically with it. Maybe your players are the kind that do so without prompting - you say "There's a deep crevasse," and they say "Oh, my rogue edges toward it and listens carefully for movement," and then they fail a spot check and everyone feels like it's fair if that remhoraz pops out later. But it's frustrating to me, as a player, to have flagged the DM that I want to be an exceptionally acute spotter (by spending resources to raise my skill), and then, as a player, mistake what the DM's mechanically important talk for mere flavor, to the detriment of my character's effectiveness. Your prompting strategy ("There could be a monster in there, for all you know") seems like a good way to meet me halfway, as a player - to make sure that I know that there's a resource-spending (or taking-advantage-of) opportunity here.crchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12108819336689444038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2206657754721636993.post-24128936989366139172010-03-02T13:08:54.778-08:002010-03-02T13:08:54.778-08:00Good point. I still had the Old School Primer in m...Good point. I still had the Old School Primer in my head, and there he purposely gives an extreme view of D20 (and warns you he's doing it).<br /><br />So the search roll isn't completely replacing fumbling around with 10' poles, but it is giving you a way to fast forward over the mundane details of how that's done. It doesn't need to be entirely one or the other.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00923748337647812135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2206657754721636993.post-75554081951619300082010-03-02T11:18:50.943-08:002010-03-02T11:18:50.943-08:00I like the advice given in Burning Wheel. State wh...I like the advice given in Burning Wheel. State what your character is doing and how (Task/Intent) and then roll the dice (or say yes). <br /><br />This way the DM is still the eyes and ears and the players can have their characters poke/prod things. <br /><br />This method works in D&D games as well.Muninhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08091986576525315425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2206657754721636993.post-30921887706440476302010-03-02T08:35:54.447-08:002010-03-02T08:35:54.447-08:00All a roll does is enable you as the DM To say &qu...All a roll does is enable you as the DM To say "Hey Bob the Warrior you saw something out of the corner of your eye" and let the players do what they want. You are giving them a nugget of information and letting the players do what they want.<br /><br />The alternative is nothing and you have to build a methodology to handle it. Would your wizard who's prone to flinging random fireballs at bird's nest be more prone to see something shiney or perhaps that cross eyed rogue who trips over his own feet. The DM could just randomly pick someone and pass them a note or other information but it seems clunky and random and not all PCs will get their fair share of time in the spot light. <br /><br />Providing mechanisms for simple obvious things and saying to the PCs "If you have this ability you can do stuff betterer!" and then actively use it gives a sense of immersion. Furthermore, the randomness of the die roll sometimes does mean that someone who could see eagles mating 10 miles away misses that buttonhole lever the bumbling rogue just happens to find. <br /><br />Rolling in reasons such as tools, poles, hanging rope in front of you to see traps increases that immersion level for the PCs. Just cause he has 20 ranks in SpotStuff doesn't mean it's a God Given Talent, means the PC is taking the time and effort to find stuff that they've learned how to do over the years.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2206657754721636993.post-51445540654504979722010-03-02T07:45:21.763-08:002010-03-02T07:45:21.763-08:00Yeah, I think you're right. Being the voice of...Yeah, I think you're right. Being the voice of common sense is part of it.<br /><br />I was reading Mattehw Finch's Old School Primer (http://www.lulu.com/content/3019374) the other day, and he speaks against having a search roll. In his vision, players prod things with poles, tap walls, and so on if they want to find someting.<br /><br />I'm wondering, how does that change how the GM acts as the eyes and ears of the players?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00923748337647812135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2206657754721636993.post-17777391552214824912010-03-02T07:02:16.503-08:002010-03-02T07:02:16.503-08:00The Fine Line of Dungeon Mastering: Give the playe...The Fine Line of Dungeon Mastering: Give the players an inch and they will take a mile, give them nothing and they will spend 3 hours investigating the intricate dust circles around a hole in the ground.<br /><br />I vastly prefer giving my characters just enough information they need to get around an obstacle or a notice something. D20 has their Spot/Search rolls to help out with this. I roll stuff behind the scenes tell a player if they see something noteworthy and let the players be the judge of the resulting actions. <br /><br />Providing a framework for the encounter is all that is required 90% of the the time. The other 10% is the DM telling them "This is a well not a nest of vipers guarding buried treasure, move along". Sometimes you have to give Common Sense to the players when they are lacking in it ;)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com